DK: Welcome to this discussion with Hindus for Human Rights. We are very happy to welcome Ajaykumar, the Executive Director of the Equitives  Foundation. Ajay has been working in the field of discrimination and exclusion of marginalized communities for over 20 years, and is currently in New York, getting ready to speak at the United Nations. And will be heading to California later in the week to be part of the Desh Videsh Conversation Series that will be hosted by Raju Rajagopal of HfHR.

Welcome Ajay

AK: Thank you, David.

DK: So I know that you've been invited to the United Nations to speak and it's my understanding it's the first invitation to the UN after these many years of your work in the field. 

How did you receive the invitation from the United Nations to speak on sustainable development goals, climate change, and the inclusion of Dalits in South Asia. Can you tell us more about the background and context of the invite and your work?

AK: As you know, I am attending the  high level political forum of the United Nations, which is reviewing the progress of the sustainable development goals (SDG) that has been achieved by the different member states across the globe. 

So every year  representatives of the states who are party to SDGs , meet and assess the progress. This year is focused on water and sanitation, affordable and clean energy. So, I am part of  a group of people who are representing communities discriminated on work and descent  from across the world.

Communities discriminated on work and descent  is broader terminology that has been used in UN communications now for describing those who are affected by the caste or similar kind of systems in South Asia, in Africa, in Latin America and different continents.  So there is a major stakeholder group called communities discriminated against based on work and descent.

And there are many people from different continents who have been invited to speak in different sessions. And I'll be speaking on, basically on energy, the SDGs [Sustainable Development Goals] and climate change synergy. I'll be focusing on how the marginalized community in India, especially, and other parts of South Asia,  in particular how Dalits are caught up in climate crisis along with social  exclusion. 

Hence, the progress made by these communities it's not, not up to the mark. So that will be my focus, the focus on my presentation to the UN.

DK: Could you elaborate a little bit on the challenges and barriers faced by Dalits in South Asia, and particularly in relation to climate change and sustainable development?

AK: Yes, we historically are marginalized, which also means it's not only the social marginalization that we have, but we are also pushed into geographical locations because of historical reasons,  regions and locations that have been now described as hazardous areas affected by  climate change and induced disaster situations. 

So,  it was not because of  climate change we have been marginalized. We have been even otherwise marginalized for generations. But, unfortunately, we are in geographical situations, like on the coast, in the forest, in backwaters, where we are forced to live - that become a hot spot of climate change and disaster situations.

So it has actually  worsened the situation of the marginalized communities across the spectrum of countries [represented at the UN meetings]. But there is a common thing in every disaster situation, every  climate change induced situation – the migration crisis.

We are the ones who have actually suffered the brunt of the problem. I’ll give you an example, you have seen the number of migrants who actually walked  back to their homes during the time of the pandemic in India. I know many of them were not able to make their way. And hundreds and  hundreds of people died during their trip back to their houses. But why have they migrated? That's the fundamental question.  They migrated because  India has been having a serious agrarian crisis that was there for almost 10 - 15 years now, which is making people leave their homes and fields and everything they have to  migrate to the city – in order to find work. And if you look at the social locations of these migrants, especially the Muslims and other marginalized people, it is not only the disaster situation, but you know, everything connected with climate change, even the rise of the water, the rise of the sea level, the agrarian crisis, that I just explained, and the other other issues. We are the ones who actually are caught up in a serious situation.

DK: Given the seriousness and the multivalence of these problems, what are some potential solutions or strategies to address these challenges?. I know it's a very big question.

AK There is, you know, no shortcut. The structural forms of discrimination and exclusion have to be dealt with in the structural forms of development, which means whenever  possible within policies. We should use the inclusion lens and make sure, in a way that is more than  lip service that those who are excluded are included in the process. 

Now, what is happening is a lot of lip service on inclusion, but there is nothing seriously translated into the ground level planning. And secondly important as part of these processes,, we should also have a role in finalizing and finding a way out of the climate and migration  challenges

Because we are the ones, as I mentioned already, we are the one who are suffering the brunt of the problem. But we are also the  ones who actually possess the knowledge on how to deal with the situation. So I've seen through the use of this vocabulary to understand people that we are at the receiving end of a different kind of articulation to say that, you know, we are not just the vulnerable people at the receiving end –  we are also knowledgeable of how to deal with the situation. There are issues that we are facing, because of  climate change, and we are the ones finding solutions on a daily basis.  It's not the State and it's not anybody else.

It's basically the community using  their survival strategies to cope up with the situations. And we have been doing it for generations, for about 4,000 years. We have survived. So we will definitely survive climate change also, but, you know, we need to be consulted. 

We need to be recognized as a primary stakeholder of these negotiations and the process.What is happening on the international level, we don't have any stake. 

It's become a kind of a business, of a few business groups or some scientists to talk about climate change. And our voices have not been being heard properly.  The invisibilization of these communities is rampant in the climate change process.

DK: I hear that it's about systemic change and real inclusion, but also a change in narrative and a change in the understanding of where important knowledge lies for dealing with these issues.  Thinking along those lines, how do you plan to leverage this particular opportunity at the UN to advocate for that kind of systemic inclusion of DAlits  and other communities  in decision making structures in South Asia? 

AK: There are groups who have been working on this issue for many years now.There are several groups across South Asia working on these issues. And there are different groupings and  organizational alliances and structures that have been working on this issue for many, many years now. There's nothing new in it. But what is new in it is that we are able to actually build alliances  with  communities in different parts of the world who are facing similar kinds of social exclusion. 

So we are able to bridge that alliance together. And now it's become a one voice inside the UN We keep knocking on every door and asking them to recognize our presence. And you know, to some extent, this has been accepted by the UN. That's why we have a major group called communities discriminated against on the basis of  work and dissent. So that is a big achievement we already have. 

Now we are basically working on different Permanent Missions in New York and at the UN to internationalize the issue and recognize and come up with a framework where we can address this issue internationally and on the domestic level. So we have a long way to go, but the groundwork has already been done.

DK: I hear echoes of the kind of international organizing that also happened amongst indigenous communities - to understand their relationships to power and advocacy, Speaking from the HfHR perspective as an NGO in the global North, what kind of collaboration are you seeking from the international community, including the UN, to address the issues faced by Dalits in South Asia to promote sustainable development and to support and develop the,kind of networks that you were talking about?

AK: There are number activities that we have been hosting in New York and Geneva, and there are a number of initiatives that need support, not in terms of the monetary but in terms of volunteers, in terms of social media - there are, there are a lot of avenues where we can come together and explore further with a larger community that I am representing.

DK: Well, we're certainly  pleased and privileged as HfHR to support your work and be a conduit for people to go and find organizations like yours that they can support through volunteerism or other kinds of participation. 

Let me shift the conversation slightly from this work that you're doing in this immediate time frame at the United Nations, and talk a little bit about this,new initiative of yours, the Equitive Foundation, which works with the equity narrative for the communities you’ve discussed .Could you provide an overview of the Equitives Foundation and its mission?

AK:  it’s a new initiative that I've, along with a few friends back in India, started.

I am a founder member of RIGHTS, an NGO working on the field of Human Rights, and I was with this organization since this inception, organizationally and personally we took a conscious decision that even though I am the founder I cannot be head of the organization forever. hence we are able to build new leadership for RIGHTS and now it’s a all women lead organization and I am stepped down from all its positions

During this process, I was also thinking about how we address or engage with  climate change and the new developmental avenues that have emerged in the last decades. Like If you look at the UN framework, there are new issues such as climate change, business and human rights, urban governance, and what are the ways and means, do things little differently. 

There is no point in Equities repeating what we have done at RIGHTS for about 15 years - they are continuing with that work. Equities Foundation broadens the ambit of its engagement to work with  business groups which  are an integral part of the development process as is adopted by the SDG framework. 

So that's what we call the human rights framework or in India we call it a constitutional framework - that we have been following for a long time now. Along with that, you know, we are also now looking into these issues differently and engaging different stakeholders a bit more 

For example,  I would like to find ways and means to cooperate with the private sector much more rigorously on our issues, which we haven't done so far, mainly because we have been caught up in this victim's narrative of development. So from here the major shift is to basically change that narrative from victimhood to empowered language.  As a community we are empowered at a different level, I’ll give you one solid example in the climate change discussion. We are seen by the discourse as the victims of climate change, we also see ourselves as solution makers. We see ourselves as a faculty that  can produce, suggest, engage, work on the mitigation aspects of climate change, because we are the ones who have the knowledge in terms of working on water, on oceans, on land at different levels for generations.

So we have these solutions, we have this knowledge. So now our engagement is basically not being only seen as a victim farmer, an adivasi  farmer who is a victim of development and a victim of climate change. We also see them as a faculty of climate change. And the work he or she has been doing for generations needs to be addressed and recognized. That's the point. Many of the  agricultural laborers in our country, or in South Asia, are landless agricultural laborers. They're the ones who are actually making and  coming up with the solutions [to climate change] . Another way of looking at it  is that they are actually landlords. So why can't the government address this situation and give some land to these people.  Recognize them as  climate engineers or climate faculties, you know? 

So this is how, this is how we are, we are unpacking our narratives. It's not finalized,, it's all in a kind of an initial repository stage, but this is how we want to see ourselves, and this is how we are world watchers.

DK; It’s a very strong point that you've made there and interestingly that you have specific projects and initiatives that are in the pipeline. It's not just  a theoretical framework. Given the kind of cross-cultural and cross community nature of some of that work in the Equitable foundation, how do you see the foundation working to bridge the gaps between the Indian and the US communities and  in the context of what you're talking about at the UN perhaps communities internationally? How do you see that dialogue being most productive or being most productively supported?

AK:  First of all, we are not really particular about a country, Okay? That's the first thing. The second one is we are also not really particular about one community. There are similar groups across South Asia having similar problems. All communities need to be working together, hand in hand at the end of the day only solidarity works. Whether it is in Sri Lanka, whether it is in India, whether it's in Nepal, whether it's in the US,  anywhere for that matter. So the building of solidarity between different communities in different regions and countries and continents is important.

In this kind of work for Equities would like to bring this as a serious concern to the upcoming COP 28 negotiation that is going to be held in Dubai in September.

Let me begin with the farmers of Kerala, or, you know, of some part of South India or in India generally to bring these new narrative reports. We need to create a space in the COP 28 where we have the support of the international community and international organizations,  Where we can build alliances and bridges of solidarity. Having collaborative events because these are some  the only way we can make this all visible to be,To bring these so-called localized concerns and issues up at the international level,  Be it at the UN, be it in different forums affecting what is happening behind the closed doors of Geneva or in corporate negotiations.

We don't want anymore somebody representing us and telling and sharing our story. We are capable enough to make that effort. We are the experts among our countries, among our communities

DK:  What are your long-term aspirations for the Equitives Foundation? How do you envision the organization's impact and influence growing over time? And what are some key milestones you hope to achieve?

AK: We would definitely like to change this narrative which is, I think, extremely important to empower the communities, not only the issues that have been spoken about, but even on other issues as well. In the long run the baseline of this work is anti-discrimination and exclusion and working towards a more inclusive or discrimination free world. If I put it in a bit of a larger perspective that's what we are up to. What we do is always,, one way or another connected to the basic idea of the world without discrimination. It's a model and way of pushing past a victimization story into a narrative of expertise and problem solving. A culturally and experientially empowered space to change the language of international policy and analysis.

DK: This has been a great conversation. It’s helped to build connections for me between the specific work you're doing at the UN now and this new paradigm shifting work  work that you're doing with the Equitives Foundation. Thank you very much.

AK:  Thank You for the conversation and thanks to HfHR for their support.  I look forward to continuing the conversation in the Desh Videsh Series on Friday July 21st.

Ajaykumar (AK) the ED of the Equitives Foundation as interviewed by Hindus for Human Rights Comms Director David Kalal (DK)